Colonial Despatches
The colonial despatches of Vancouver Island and British Columbia 1846-1871
Despatch to London
Musgrave, Sir Anthony to
Wodehouse, First Earl of Kimberley John
11 October 1870, CO 60:41, no. 11857, 101.
Abstract
Musgrave, Sir Anthony to
Wodehouse, First Earl of Kimberley John
11 October 1870, CO 60:41, no. 11857, 101.
Despatch to London.
Minutes (5), Enclosures (untranscribed) (7), Other documents (1).
Confidential
11th October 1870
My Lord,
I have had the honor to receive Your Lordship's Confidential
Despatch of the 24th August, enclosing for my information
Copies of a correspondence with the Foreign Office in regard to
the reported intention of the United States Government to
include San Juan and theadjacent
adjacent Islands in the Census of the
United States.
adjacent Islands in the Census of the
United States.
2. This matter has already been brought to my notice by Mr
Thornton, as he states in his Despatch to the Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs, and I now enclose a Copy of the reply which
I then forwarded to Mr Thornton. It was in fact too late for
interference, even if I had authority for the purpose, or, if
interference had appeared desirable. But I was notdisposed
disposed
to attach much importance to the proceeding. I have however
recently received another Despatch from Mr Thornton, of which I
forward a Copy in which he acquaints me that the United States
Government have relinquished the intention to include San Juan
in the Census.
disposed
to attach much importance to the proceeding. I have however
recently received another Despatch from Mr Thornton, of which I
forward a Copy in which he acquaints me that the United States
Government have relinquished the intention to include San Juan
in the Census.
3. There is I fear very little doubt of the disposition of the
authorities of the United States gradually to transgress the
limits of the understandingagreed
agreed upon for the occupation of
San Juan, if they are allowed to do so. I now forward to Your
Lordship a Copy of a Letter from the War Department at
Washington, which has been brought under my notice within the
last few days, addressed to a person interested in property at
San Juan, in which jurisdiction is claimed for the Courts of
Washington Territory over the persons and property of American
residents on the Island. Thishas
has come into my hands through a
private channel or I would forward it to Mr Thornton, but I
scarcely feel at liberty to furnish it as the basis of any
formal representation to the United States Government. In
representations which have been made to me it is alleged that
British subjects as well as Americans were interested in the
property to which the Letter refers, and application was made to
me for interference; but I did not regard myself under yourpredecessor's
predecessor's instructions as having any authority, or the
Courts of this Colony as at present possessing any jurisdiction.
agreed upon for the occupation of
San Juan, if they are allowed to do so. I now forward to Your
Lordship a Copy of a Letter from the War Department at
Washington, which has been brought under my notice within the
last few days, addressed to a person interested in property at
San Juan, in which jurisdiction is claimed for the Courts of
Washington Territory over the persons and property of American
residents on the Island. Thishas
has come into my hands through a
private channel or I would forward it to Mr Thornton, but I
scarcely feel at liberty to furnish it as the basis of any
formal representation to the United States Government. In
representations which have been made to me it is alleged that
British subjects as well as Americans were interested in the
property to which the Letter refers, and application was made to
me for interference; but I did not regard myself under yourpredecessor's
predecessor's instructions as having any authority, or the
Courts of this Colony as at present possessing any jurisdiction.
Minutes by CO staff
See F.O. 11302.
The U.S. Census Dt explains that all political purpose was
disclaimed, & that it was taken solely in the interests of
statistical science!
Copy to F.O. calling attention to the last par. of this despatch
as to claims
of the Courts at Washington over the persons and
property of American residents in S. Juan?
of the Courts at Washington over the persons and
property of American residents in S. Juan?
CC
8/11
Sir F. Rogers
By the arrangement of 1859, San Juan was to be jointly occupied, militarily, by detachments of British Marines and United States Troops. That arrangement is temporary, and without prejudice to the claims of either Government. A vast quantity of corresce has since taken place, but I think that I have annexed as much as you will care to look at.
By the arrangement of 1859, San Juan was to be jointly occupied, militarily, by detachments of British Marines and United States Troops. That arrangement is temporary, and without prejudice to the claims of either Government. A vast quantity of corresce has since taken place, but I think that I have annexed as much as you will care to look at.
Assertion of rights of Washington Territory (F.O./3685 of 69).
Proposed convention (F.O./554 of 69).
Mr Howard's speech
against it (F.O./2504 of 70).
against it (F.O./2504 of 70).
Simply states that at that date, it was of no use reopening the
question (F.O./6150/70, 4 June).
Besides this correspondence, the Legislature of B. Columbia moved
a Resolution (Govr 5724/70) for the settlement of the question in
their interest.
A Memorial, said to have been signed by a number of Residents in
Victoria, V.I., (F.O./917/70) praying for annexation to the States,
and addressed to the President,
was stated by Mr Musgrave to be
the production of some forty aliens there resident (Govr 3869/70).
was stated by Mr Musgrave to be
the production of some forty aliens there resident (Govr 3869/70).
The Canadian View of the question is given in M/37/68
(M37/68/69).
To sum up, the proposed Convention has lapsed by time owing to
the opposition with which it met in the States; which Americans and
English have alike sought a termination of the difficulty according
to their respective views.
Incidentally, the following questions have been raised:
The relative professional ranks of the American and British
commanding
officers.
officers.
As to the taking of an American Census in the
Island. The States have abandoned this project.
Claim of Washington Territory to decide on Civil cases from the
Islands. These papers are in circulation. They shall be sent you as
soon as possible, if you wish to see them. A minute of yours is now
being drafted.
Printed copy of corresce annexed for reference.
RSM
12/11/70
Mr Monsell
It appears to me that this Washington Law Court may get us into some difficulty. A state tribunal being an echo of the popular feeling will of course proceed recklessly in its judgements, according to the popular view of the popular rights.
It appears to me that this Washington Law Court may get us into some difficulty. A state tribunal being an echo of the popular feeling will of course proceed recklessly in its judgements, according to the popular view of the popular rights.
Then will come the question of enforcement. Even if Enforced
as betn American subjects, the Act of Enforcement wd be
contrary to the notion of a mere joint military occupation
and
the practice of enforcement on the U.S. side, unaccompanied by
the exercise of any civil authority on our side would establish
a precedent against us. On the other hand, if a population grows
up, it is no doubt requisite that they shd be subject to some
civil authority.
and
the practice of enforcement on the U.S. side, unaccompanied by
the exercise of any civil authority on our side would establish
a precedent against us. On the other hand, if a population grows
up, it is no doubt requisite that they shd be subject to some
civil authority.
If it belongs to Gt Britain at all, it belongs to B. Columbia
(vide Lgn in Act of Parlt)—and their
Courts wd have in our view the same right of interference
as those of Washington.
Either both Courts ought to act therefore—avowedly—or
neither. And it appears to me that the matter ought to be
placed before [Mr Firth?]
in this light. I am not myself aware
that there is any reason for desiring one form of equality
more than another, so long as equality is secured.
If the U.S. Courts give judgement in a matter in which British
subjects are concerned—it will I suppose be necessary
effectually to resist Enforcement of their decree—wh I
suppose the Military Officers on both sides, might not
improbably agree to do, in an amicable way, if they are left alone.
It seems to me however that the W.D. letter is almost a
direction to allow the Washington Courts to enforce their decrees.
I shd be disposed to write to the F.O. in something of this
sense.
Only Mr E.T.
must not be at liberty to quote the letter from
the War department, but must find his own way to opening up the subject.
Documents enclosed with the main document (not transcribed)
Musgrave to Edward Thornton, Washington, 2 August 1870,
acknowledging previous correspondence concerning the census question and
advising that he was not in a position to interfere.
J.C. Bancroft Davis, Department of State, to Thornton, 29 August
1870, advising of the exemption of San Juan Island from the U.S.
census.
F.A. Walker, Superintendent, Department of the Interior, Census
Office, to Cox, 14 July 1870, advising that the enumeration had
no political purpose but rather was to be conducted "solely in
the interests of statistical science."
L.D. Whiner, Inspector General,
War Department, to David Cross, 30 April 1870, advising
that any land claims in the San Juans were to be referred to the
Law Courts of Washington as "they have legal jurisdiction over
the property and persons of American Residents of the Island."
Other documents included in the file
Herbert to Under-Secretary of State, Foreign Office, 22 November
1870, forwarding copy of the despatch and commenting at length as
per minutes.
People in this document
Herbert, Sir Robert George Wyndham
Macdonald, Reginald John Somerled