Murdoch to Elliot (Assistant Under-Secretary)
               
            
            
               
               
                     Emigration Board
                     
                  
               18th December 1866
               
               Sir,
                
            
            
               I have to acknowledge your letter of 
4th inst, with a despatch
               from the Governor of 
Vancouver Island enclosing, with other
               documents, a report from a Board of Officers whom he had appointed
               to consider the Draft reconveyance of 
Vancouver Island to the
               Crown, which was prepared in this Country and transmitted to the
               Colonial Government for their consideration.  The Board consisted
               of the Colonial

 Secretary—the Acting Attorney General—the Acting
               Surveyor General and the Registrar General.
               
               2.  In transmitting the Draft reconveyance to the 
Governor Mr
                  Secretary Cardwell, while directing him to see that the Map to be
               attached to the Deed was not so drawn as to confer on the Company
               any advantage not intended by the Government, impressed on him "the
               expediency of not raising any question which would unnecessarily
               delay a settlement" of the matter.  Acting on the former part of
               this instruction the Board of Officers proceed to reargue three of
               the questions which have been so much

               debated between the Colonial
               Authorities and the Hudson's Bay Company during the last 4 years.
               Those questions are—
               
               First—the Sale of a portion of 
Beacon Hill Park, through an error 
               in running its Western boundary.
               
               Second—the sale of a portion of the foreshore on the South side of
               
James Bay—and
               
               Third—The sale of lot Z.
               
            
            
               3.  The general argument put forward by the Board of Officers in
               each case is, that the sale of the land was inconsistent with the
               plan on which the Town of 
Victoria was laid out by the Company, as
               shown on the Map

 of 
1858—that the Map was recognized by the
               Company as "official"—their deeds of conveyance referring to it
               under that Title and containing no other description of the land
               conveyed—that consequently it formed a contract between the
               Company and the public—and could not, therefore, be set aside
               "without the consent of all parties concerned."  If this argument
               were good it would be conclusive, since the Map of 
1858, of which a
               copy was published in 
1861, undoubtedly sets out the Land in the
               manner maintained by the Board of Officers.  But I apprehend that
               according to the opinion of

 the Law Officers of the Crown of 
26th
                  July 1865, that Map did not constitute such a dedication of the
               Land in question as would divest the Company of their right to deal
               with it and that the Indenture of 
Febry 1862 must be held to
               validate all sales made by the Company, previous to it's date, so
               far as the Crown is concerned.
               
               4.  But passing from this general question, it is alleged, in
               respect to the sale of part of the 
public Park that it took place
               not designedly, but by an error of the person employed to run the
               Boundary.  This is admitted by 
Mr Dallas who moreover alleged that
               the error

 originated in the Colonial Land Office, and was
               discovered & rectified by himself.  The Board on the other hand
               state that the error was committed by 
Mr Tiedemann, who although
               he had been employed temporarily in the Land Office, was at the
               time on leave from that office and was employed by the Hudson's Bay
               C
o and that it was while so employed in laying out their land that
               he encroached by mistake on the 
public Park.  The extent of land
               cut off from the 
Park is stated to be 3 1/2 Acres and the price
               paid to the Company for it 1700 dollars.  As it is not in a
               position in which it would

 have been much used by the Public, and
               no public inconvenience results, therefore, from the sale, the
               Board are satisfied with recommending that the Company should be
               required to refund the amount received for this land.  This appears
               to me no more than reasonable.  Whether the error was made by 
Mr
                  Tiedemann while in the service of the Land department or of the
               Company is not, I think, essential.  It is admitted by the Company
               that the land in question formed part of the 
Park which had been
               assigned to the Public, and that the sale of it was the consequence
               of a

 mistake.  But if so it follows that the price realized by the
               sale ought to belong to the party to whom the land belonged—that
               is to the Public.  I would suggest that as regards this case the
               course recommended by the Board should be adopted, and the company
               be requested to refund the amount received for the Land.
               
               5.  Second in respect to the water frontage on the South side of
               
James Bay, the Board, besides appealing as has been said to the map
               of 
1858, allege that most of the lots were sold for inadequate
               consideration to servants of the company.  But if, as the Law

               Officers state, the Crown cannot after all that has passed dispute
               the right of the Company to regard the land of which they were in
               possession before 
1849 as absolutely their own, it has clearly no
               right to question the manner in which they disposed of that land.
               The sales in question were all made previous to 
1862, and came
               therefore within the scope of the Indenture of 
Febry 1862.  The
               Committee recommend that the Crown should not part with these
               foreshore rights.  But the Indenture of 
1862 expressly includes the
               water frontage and spaces between high and low water mark sold by
               the Company

 among the sales which it recognizes.  The Crown is,
               therefore, precluded from taking the course suggested by the Board
               of Officers in this respect.
               
               6.  Thirdly—the question of the sale of lot Z to 
Mr Lowenburg
                  [Lowenberg] had been so repeatedly under consideration that there
               is but little new to be said about it.  The Board repeat their
               conviction, from their personal knowledge, that Lot Z formed part
               of the Government reserve at the time it was sold to 
Mr Lowenburg.
               
Mr Young the Colonial Secretary, in a Memorandum addressed to the
               Governor which the Board

 append to their report, states, that he is
               prepared to declare on oath that when he purchased from the Company
               certain lots of land, in rear of lot Z, in 
Janry 1860, the boundary
               line of the Government reserve on the Map exhibited to him formed
               one side of the Street, and corresponded with the corner posts
               placed there in 
1858, which he had himself seen on the ground both
               before and after the sale to 
Lowenburg.  He distinctly denies the
               statement that Lot Z was fenced off by an ox fence &c, and so
               continued till sold to 
Lowenburg—and that it was under
               cultivation—and alleges that the land that was under cultivation

               was on the other side of the Street.  And he adds that from the
               early part of 
1860 he was in the habit of passing to and fro
               between his office and his residence over the disputed piece of
               land, and can assert that "from that date to the time of the sale
               to 
Lowenburg neither fence, ditch, rails, bank or crops existed.  A
               drain to carry off the surface water certainly did exist, but in
               some cases it had become nearly obliterated, and in others was only
               some 6 or 8 inches deep" &c.  In support of his statement that Lot
               Z formed part of the Government reserve

 he quotes extracts of
               Affidavits made by 
Mr Tiedemann and 
Mr Pemberton in 
May 1861.
               The extract from 
Mr Tiedemann's affidavit is to the effect that
               about midsummer 
1858 he laid out the Government Reserve, containing
               10 Acres or thereabouts, under instructions from the Acting
               Colonial Surveyor—that he had examined the 10 Acres so laid out
               since the alleged sale to 
Lowenburg and finds that the piece of
               land so alleged to have been purchased by 
Lowenburg is a portion
               of the said 10 Acres &c.  
Mr Pemberton's Affidavit states that he
               instructed 
Tiedemann to lay out a reserve of 10 Acres—that he
               afterwards

 examined the lines on the ground and found them [to]
               correspond accurately, and that he is informed and believes that
               
Lowenburg has purchased a piece of the Land comprized in such
               Reserve.  
Mr Young assumes that if this evidence on Oath had been
               before the Law Officers they would have given more weight to the
               representations of the Colonial Government than of the Hudsons Bay
               Company.  But on the other hand it is to be observed that 
Mr
                  Young has omitted a few very essential words used by 
Mr Tiedemann
               in describing the manner in which he laid out the Reserve, vizt, by
               the extension of the "South line of Section VI" and that the Law
               Officers had before them another affidavit made by 
Mr Tiedemann
 Tiedemann on
               the 
2nd June 1865, which explains the words I have quoted, and
               would very much have modified the effect of the earlier Affidavit
               referred to by 
Mr Young, even if that Affidavit had been exactly
               as he quoted it.  In their other Affidavit 
Mr Tiedemann says, that
               while engaged in constructing the official map he found that there
               were not 10 Acres in the Government Reserve—that on mentioning
               this to 
Mr Pemberton he was ordered to make up the deficiency by
               adding to the Southern side the portion of land now forming lot Z
               "which at that time formed part of the Company's hayfields at
               Beckley Farm"—that 
Mr Dallas
 who happened to pass while he was
               running the boundary, objected to what he was doing, on the ground
               that the land in question belonged to the Company—and that he was
               ordered by the Colonial Surveyor to include the land in the
               Government reserve, notwithstanding this notice.  This affidavit is
               also consistent with the evidence given by 
Mr Tiedemann before the
               Committee of the House of Assembly in 
Novr 1863, to the effect
               that 
Mr Dallas said that in laying out the Reserve he took away
               some land of his (
Dallas') farm and that

 the line of Beckley Farm
               ditch and fence would appear on the North side of lot Z.
               
               7.  The evidence on the subject of lot Z is so conflicting that it
               is hopeless to attempt to decide upon it in this Country, or by a
               mere comparison of the statements of the several witnesses.  Nor is
               it I apprehend necessary to attempt now to do so.  The Law Officers
               give it as their opinion, that even if lot Z had been dedicated to
               public uses, it could have been sold by the Hudsons Bay C
o with
               the consent of the Crown—and that assuming the facts to be as
               stated in the papers before them—and those facts to have been

               known to the Government, the Indenture of 
Febry 1862 operated to
               validate the sale, so that it cannot now be questioned by the
               Government.  That being the case it only remains to consider what
               can now be done to remedy the inconvenience which it is said will
               accrue to the public from the sale of this lot.
               
               8.  The Board of Officers, assuming that the sale of the land by
               the Company was "unlawful," suggest that the Company should be
               required to refund the amount, 1285 dollars, received for it, to be
               applied in part payment of its repurchase.  This assumption,
               however, cannot

 be maintained, in the face of the opinion of the
               Law Officers of the Crown—and it is certain that the Company would
               refuse to admit it.  The result would be to postpone indefinitely
               the reconveyance of the Island to the Crown to the serious injury
               of public interests.
               
               9.  But it is said the Government might put a pressure on the
               Company in this matter, by making it a condition of the exchange of
               a certain lot in Fort Street which, by a mistake on the part of 
Mr
                  Dallas, was inserted in the indenture of 
Febry 1862 for a lot in
               Broughton Street.  The mistake was so evident that the 
Duke of
                  Newcastle consented to

 its rectification as part of the general
               arrangement.  It would hardly, I think, be becoming in the
               Government now to take advantage of that mistake in the manner
               suggested by the Board of Officers, and the attempt to do so would
               naturally lead to strong remonstrances from the Company and
               continued delay.  I cannot therefore, recommend the adoption of
               that course.
               
               10.  I have already suggested that the Hudson's Bay C
o should be
               called on to refund the amount received for the portion of the
               
public Park erroneously sold

 for their benefit, amounting to 1700
               dollars.  That sum when recovered might be applied towards the
               repurchase of Lot Z.  Lot Z has been recently valued on appeal to
               the Court of the Real Estate Assessed Tax at 2000 dollars.  Its
               saleable value is probably more, but whatever it may be the balance
               beyond the above 1700 dollars must be provided out of Colonial
               Funds.  It will, I presume, be necessary to obtain an Act of the
               Legislature giving the Crown the usual powers of compulsory purchase
               in respect to this Lot—but there is no reason to apprehend any

               difficulty on the part of the Legislature in passing such an Act.
               
               11.  In a Memorandum attached to the report of the Board the
               Attorney General expresses an opinion that the proposed Deed of
               reconveyance ought to be modified, and ought to be in the form of a
               Conveyance of all the 
Island excepting the Lands in Town and
               Country sold by the Hudsons Bay Company, which should be included
               in a schedule and set out on a plan to be attached to the Deed.
               The Deed was not drawn in it's present form unadvisedly as will be
               seen by a reference to the report from this Board of 
10 Febry last,
               & as it has been approved by the Law Officers

 of the Crown in this
               country it is scarcely necessary to discuss the point raised by the
               Acting Attorney General in the Colony.
               
               12.  In the Draft as returned from the Colony some alterations have
               been suggested by the Colonial Government.  They refer to the
               description of the lands excepted from reconveyance and appear to
               us to raise no question of importance.  It would, however, be
               necessary that the attention of the Hudsons Bay Company should be
               drawn to them before the necessary steps are taken for executing
               the reconveyance, should 
Lord Carnarvon
 decide, notwithstanding the
               remonstrance of the Board of Officers, on proceeding with that measure.
               
               I have the honor to be,
               Sir
               Your obedient
               humble Servant
               
T.W.C. Murdoch
               
               
               Minutes by CO staff
               
                
                  
                  
                     Sir F. Rogers
                     Mr Murdoch submits three recommendations on the Report of the
                     local Board of Officers.  1
st that the H.B. Company should be
                     required to refund the amount (1700 dollars) realized by the sale
                     of part of the 
Public Park.  2
nd that the Crown should not take
                     the course suggested by the Board

 and refuse to confirm the sales
                     of the Water frontage on 
James' Bay, being precluded from doing so
                     by the terms of the Indenture of 
1862.  3
rd that lot Z (
Lowenbergs
                     land) should be purchased by the local 
Govt & that the Sum of 1700
                     dollars received from the Company on account of the 
Public Park
                     should be appropriated, as far as it will go, to that purpose—the
                     balance to be paid from Colonial funds.  If these suggestions are
                     adopted the first step I apprehend will be to communicate the
                     decision to the H.B. Company & in doing so to call attention to the
                     red ink alterations in the Indenture?
                     
 
                  
                  
                   
                  
                  
                     Mr Adderley
                     V.C.I. was conveyed to the H.B.C., subject, in part to certain
                     possessory rights—and subject to the duty of governing it & of
                     applying to public purposes the proceeds of their land sales.  This
                     did not satisfy the world or work well and after a few years, the
                     possession & 
Govt of the 
Island was resumed by the Crown.  By the
                     terms of the agreement this involved a great settlement of accounts
                     with the H.B.C. & a reconveyance of this soil of the 
Island by them
                     to the Crown.  The Settlement of accounts was effected.  The Comp
y
                     originally claimed (I think) some 200,000£.  But ultimately the
                     
money payment was reduced (I think) to some 50,000£ or
                     60,000£ 
wh money was paid to the Comp
y.
                     
 
                  
                  
                     On the reconveyance various knotty questions have arisen—inflamed
                     to the highest pitch of animosity by the disputes bet
n
                     Sir James Douglas the old Agent of the Company & Governor of the
                     
Island and 
Mr Dallas the new agent of the Comp
y who married
                     
Sir J. D's daughter.  
Mr Young the present Colonial Secretary
                     married another daughter of 
Sir J. Douglas.
                     
                     I mention this because I conceive that one main object of 
Govt
                     here should be to prevent the public

 interest being sacrificed,
                     with the object or the result of protracting these family disputes.
                     
                     Hitherto the effect of these disputes, of the parallel quarrels
                     between the 
V.C.I. Legislature & the H.B.C. has been that after
                     years of controversy the Crown has not yet got its legal title to
                     the soil of 
V.C. Island.  The matter has been pending since 
May 1859.
                     
                     The Instrument now under cons
n was framed after consultation with
                     the Law Officers, (vide 7205/
1865 & 2296/
1866) both as to substance
                     & as to form—and was sent to 
V.C.I. for verification & revision.
                     
                     This is the result.  I confess I can only look on the report of the
                     Board of Officers (with 
Mr Young as their head) as a piece of
                     local hard fighting—obstinacy of men who are too much absorbed in
                     their own particular points to see that in the settlement of a
                     large & intricate question

 mathematical justice in petty disputes
                     must not be insisted on.
                     
                     I have no doubt that if I had a weeks uninterrupted leisure for
                     examination I 
shd be able to prove to 
Lord Carnarvon conclusively,
                     that strict justice could not be in all respects secured without
                     sending out a Commission of impartial Lawyers from England to take
                     evidence on oath first there & then here.  But I do not think such
                     a conclusion 
wd help us much.
                     
                     I think that as in the opinion of the Emign Commrs the question
                     is now reduced to one of 1700$ say
                     400£—It shd be settled—by getting the money if we
                     can—by yielding it if we cannot.
                     
                  
                  
                     I would therefore state that 
Ld C. concurred in the conclusions
                     of the Comm
rs & 
wd
 request them to communicate with the H.B.C.
                     accordingly.  They have for the most part negotiated the matter
                     with 
Mr Maynard the Comp
y solicitor.
                     
                  
                  
                     This is all, as it seems to me, that can be done.
                     
                  
                  
                  
                   
                
            
            
               Other documents included in the file
               
               
                   
                     
                     
                        Colonial Office to Emigration Commissioners, 
2 January 1867,
                        advising that 
Carnarvon concurs in their conclusions with respect
                        to the report received from the colony, and asking that such
                        opinion be communicated to the company.
                        
 
               
                
            
            
               
                  People in this document
                  
                        Adderley, C. B.
                  
                        Cardwell, Edward
                  
                        Carnarvon, Earl
                  
                        Dallas,  Alexander Grant
                  
                        Douglas, Sir James
                  
                        Elliot, Thomas Frederick
                  Jadis, Vane
                  
                        Lowenberg, Leopold
                  
                        Maynard, Joseph
                  Murdoch, Thomas William Clinton
                  Pelham-Clinton, 5th Duke of Newcastle Henry Pelham Fiennes
                  Pemberton, Joseph Despard
                  Rogers, Baron Blachford Frederic
                  
                        Tiedemann, H.
                  Young, William Alexander George
                
               
                  Places in this document
                  Beacon Hill
                  James Bay
                  Vancouver Island
                  Victoria