Colonial Despatches
The colonial despatches of Vancouver Island and British Columbia 1846-1871
Despatch to London
Douglas, Sir James to Pelham-Clinton, 5th Duke of Newcastle Henry Pelham Fiennes 8 October 1860, CO 60:8, no. 11191, 182.
Abstract
Douglas, Sir James to Pelham-Clinton, 5th Duke of Newcastle Henry Pelham Fiennes 8 October 1860, CO 60:8, no. 11191, 182.
Despatch to London.
Minutes (7), Enclosures (untranscribed) (1), Other documents (1).
No. 87, Military
Adverting to your Despatch of the 2nd of July last,
No 37, respecting the rate of Extra pay determined upon
for the Detachment
of
of Royal Marines brought to Vancouver's
Island in the "Tribune", I have the honor to forward herewith
to Your Grace Copy of a communication I have received from
Rear Admiral Baynes the Naval Commander in Chief, claiming
that the sums already paid on account of Extra pay should
not go in deduction of any amounts that may be due under
the authority of your aforesaid despatch.
of Royal Marines brought to Vancouver's
Island in the "Tribune", I have the honor to forward herewith
to Your Grace Copy of a communication I have received from
Rear Admiral Baynes the Naval Commander in Chief, claiming
that the sums already paid on account of Extra pay should
not go in deduction of any amounts that may be due under
the authority of your aforesaid despatch.
2.
2. The rates of Extra pay mentioned in my Despatch of
the 8th of June 1859 No 168, were paid to the Officers
and Men from the 14th of April, the day they were first
sent to British Columbia, to the 31st of July, when they
were withdrawn from that Colony on account of the San Juan
occupation. I did not authorise any further issue of Extra
pay, as circumstances permitted me to discontinue it, and
as Your Despatch
of
of the 7th September 1859 led me to
expect the receipt of definite instructions upon the subject.
2. The rates of Extra pay mentioned in my Despatch of
the 8th of June 1859 No 168, were paid to the Officers
and Men from the 14th of April, the day they were first
sent to British Columbia, to the 31st of July, when they
were withdrawn from that Colony on account of the San Juan
occupation. I did not authorise any further issue of Extra
pay, as circumstances permitted me to discontinue it, and
as Your Despatch
of
of the 7th September 1859 led me to
expect the receipt of definite instructions upon the subject.
3. As Your Grace's present instructions are in reply
to my aforesaid Despatch, and are based upon the assumption
that no Extra pay had been issued, it is clear to my mind
that any payments which have already taken place on this
account cannot be classed in any other category than with
the payments now authorised,
but
but, notwithstanding, as Extra
pay at a higher rate has actually been issued up to the
31st of July 1859, I would submit to Your Grace on behalf
of a Detachment of men whose conduct amidst temptations to
desertion of no ordinary character, and under circumstances
of difficulty and hardship, has invariably been most
satisfactory and loyal, that the payments already made should
be confirmed, and
that
that Your Grace's present award should take
effect from the 1st August 1859.
but, notwithstanding, as Extra
pay at a higher rate has actually been issued up to the
31st of July 1859, I would submit to Your Grace on behalf
of a Detachment of men whose conduct amidst temptations to
desertion of no ordinary character, and under circumstances
of difficulty and hardship, has invariably been most
satisfactory and loyal, that the payments already made should
be confirmed, and
that
that Your Grace's present award should take
effect from the 1st August 1859.
Minutes by CO staff
Mr Elliot
The higher rate of Extra Pay (3s/a day) to the Marines has been sanctioned by despatch N 60 of 12th Ulto. From the date at which the Detachment was stationed on San Juan the service I apprehend became an Imperial one, and any extra pay to which the officers & men may be entitled while doing duty at San Juan will consequently be defrayed by the
Admiralty, to which Dept: I conclude a Copy of this
Despatch should be sent?
The higher rate of Extra Pay (3s/a day) to the Marines has been sanctioned by despatch N 60 of 12th Ulto. From the date at which the Detachment was stationed on San Juan the service I apprehend became an Imperial one, and any extra pay to which the officers & men may be entitled while doing duty at San Juan will consequently be defrayed by the
Admiralty, to which Dept: I conclude a Copy of this
Despatch should be sent?
VJ
1 Decr
See separate Minute.
TFE
21 Feby
Mr Fortescue
This despatch has accidentally escaped my attention. Fortunately however it is one on which little requires to be done, as I believe that it has been virtually disposed of by anticipation.
This despatch has accidentally escaped my attention. Fortunately however it is one on which little requires to be done, as I believe that it has been virtually disposed of by anticipation.
The Royal Marines who volunteered from China for Vancouver's Island were promised extra pay by their Commanding Officer,
but under an impression that none had yet been issued to
them, the Duke of Newcastle gave authority to the Governor
on the 2nd of July 1860 to give to all this party Colonial
pay equal to their regular pay so as to constitute double pay.
The Admiral represented through the Admiralty that the
men had in fact been receiving much more than this, for that
being employed at Engineer's work under Colonel Moody, they
had been allowed something like 3s/- a day until they were
recalled in order to occupy San Juan. Thereupon a fresh
despatch was written to the Governor, dated the 12th of
Novr 1860, authorizing him to let the Marines retain the
higher pay which had already been issued to them for their
services under Colonel Moody. The present despatch
from
from
the Governor is written on the receipt of the first
instructions dated the 2nd of July. He makes the same
explanation as the Admiral, and expresses the same hope
that the men will be allowed to retain the higher rate of
extra pay which had already been issued to them up to the
31st of July 1859 when they were recalled from B. Columbia
in order to occupy San Juan. The reply to this will be
simply to refer the Governor to the later instructions of
the 12th of Novr last, which will have sanctioned the
very course he recommends.
from
the Governor is written on the receipt of the first
instructions dated the 2nd of July. He makes the same
explanation as the Admiral, and expresses the same hope
that the men will be allowed to retain the higher rate of
extra pay which had already been issued to them up to the
31st of July 1859 when they were recalled from B. Columbia
in order to occupy San Juan. The reply to this will be
simply to refer the Governor to the later instructions of
the 12th of Novr last, which will have sanctioned the
very course he recommends.
But then both the Governor and the Admiral are silent
as to any extra pay at all to the Marines subsequent to the
31st of July 1859. Now as the arguments based on the
cost of living &c remain as much in force as ever, I
should think it probable that the original proposal of
double pay to Officers and men might still be a very fair
one, the extra portion falling upon the Colony. The higher
rate under Colonel Moody was not on account of expenses of living, but of special and
hard
hard work.
hard work.
As the same time we are so much in the dark as to what
may have been doing, that instead of giving on this point
any instruction which might turn out to be inappropriate
or disappointing, I would suggest that whilst pointing out
to the Governor that his wishes are anticipated as to the
period of service in British Columbia, we should desire him
to report what course may have been followed in respect of
pay to the Marines since they quitted that Colony and occupied
San Juan.
TFE
21 Feby
I should think the Admiralty, as Mr Jadis suggests,
could give us some information. I wd. first send this desp.
to them—& say that the D. of N. presumes that, since the
31st July 1859, since when the Marines have been employed
upon a service of an Imperial rather than Colonial character,
their extra-pay has been defrayed by the Admiralty—but
requesting information.
Mr Fortescue
All the previous letters and despatches have assumed that whatever extra pay might be allowed would be a charge to the Colony, and I have never known a precedent for charging extra pay for the Queen's Troops to the funds of the Army and Navy. In such a service as that of the Marines, they must constantly be in far worse places than San Juan, and it would obviously introduce great confusion and jealousies into the Service if one detached party of this kind were allowed exceptional pay from its own Department, when all others are strictly confined to the terms of their engagement.
All the previous letters and despatches have assumed that whatever extra pay might be allowed would be a charge to the Colony, and I have never known a precedent for charging extra pay for the Queen's Troops to the funds of the Army and Navy. In such a service as that of the Marines, they must constantly be in far worse places than San Juan, and it would obviously introduce great confusion and jealousies into the Service if one detached party of this kind were allowed exceptional pay from its own Department, when all others are strictly confined to the terms of their engagement.
TFE
26 Feb
I believe extra-pay for Marines in China has been voted in
the Army Estimates.
CF
28
Documents enclosed with the main document (not transcribed)
Rear Admiral Baynes to Douglas, 9 September 1860, discussing the question of extra pay for the Royal Marines, as per despatch.
Other documents included in the file
Draft, Elliot to Secretary to the Admiralty, 5 March 1861,
forwarding correspondence relating to pay of the Royal Marines stationed
in the colony and asking whether they had received further intelligence
on the subject.
Minutes by CO staff
I see Admiral Baynes says (in 10354) that "on the 1st
Aug. 1859 the Govr stopped all Colonial allowance to the
detachment." But this enquiry had better go.
CF
28
People in this document
Baynes, Rear Admiral Robert Lambert
Fortescue, 1st Baron Carlingford Chichester
Moody, Colonel Richard Clement