Colonial Despatches
The colonial despatches of Vancouver Island and British Columbia 1846-1871
Public Offices document
Berens, Henry Hulse to Pelham-Clinton, 5th Duke of Newcastle Henry Pelham Fiennes 27 August 1861, CO 60:12, no. 7852, 148.
Abstract
Public Offices document.
Minutes (4), Enclosures (untranscribed) (1).
Berens writes to Newcastle on the protracted conflict between the HBC and Douglas over HBC land-claims in British Columbia. Berens reports that the Company agrees essentially with Douglas's latest propositions, with some specific modifications.
Berens to Newcastle
Hudson's Bay House
27 August 1861
I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of Mr
Fortescue's letter of the 9th instant communicating to me,
by the directions of Your Grace, the substance of a despatch
recently received from Governor Douglas on the subject of the claims of the Hudson's Bay Company to land in British Columbia,
in which he suggests as a basis for the settlement of those
claims—first, as regards Country lots that the places occupied
by the Company as existing Forts or Posts; and which are necessary
for carrying on their business, should be transferred to the
Company infee
fee together with all fenced or cultivated lands, if
not exceeding One hundred acres of Country land in any one grant,
except, at New Langley and Kamloops where the grants should be
increased to five hundred acres each, and secondly, as regards
town lots that the Company be restricted to lots actually occupied
by their business premises.
fee together with all fenced or cultivated lands, if
not exceeding One hundred acres of Country land in any one grant,
except, at New Langley and Kamloops where the grants should be
increased to five hundred acres each, and secondly, as regards
town lots that the Company be restricted to lots actually occupied
by their business premises.
In reply I beg to assure Your Grace that it is the earnest
desire of the Hudson's Bay Company to put an end to the differences
existing on this subject, on any terms that may appear to be
reasonable, and I trust that the suggestions thrown out by Governor Douglas furnish ground for hoping that an arrangement may now be come to.
The
The limit put by Governor Douglas upon the quantity of land
to be transferred to the Company, in connection with their
different Forts and Posts bears, in most cases, but a small
proportion to the amount to which they have laid claim, and
which claims they certainly understood Governor Douglas,
(from the terms of his despatch to Your Grace under date the
31st day of May 1859, and transmitted to me by Your Grace's
direction under date the 14th September 1859) to have
admitted as well founded. But still the wish of this Company
being to have the question settled in such a manner as that
their rights shall be clearly defined, so that they may be
enabled to pursue their business without furtherencroachments
encroachments
or intrusion, they are ready to adopt the proposal of Governor
Douglas as a general proposition, coupled however, with certain
modifications rendered necessary by local circumstances, where
it is clear that the quantity of land proposed to be given is not
sufficient for the carrying on of the Company's trade.
encroachments
or intrusion, they are ready to adopt the proposal of Governor
Douglas as a general proposition, coupled however, with certain
modifications rendered necessary by local circumstances, where
it is clear that the quantity of land proposed to be given is not
sufficient for the carrying on of the Company's trade.
I shall not trouble your Grace by entering into an
examination of Governor Douglas's proposition as applicable to
each particular Post or Fort, as it would require an intimate
local knowledge of the places in question, but I herewith enclose
a statement drawn up by a Gentleman who has recently returned
from Vancouver's Island where he actedfor
for the last three years
as representative of the Company, and from which Your Grace will
observe that there is no disposition on the part of the Company
to be exacting in their demands, or to require more space than
is actually required for the maintenance of their establishments
on their present footing. The terms suggested are in some instances
almost the same, in others only a trifle larger than those proposed
by Governor Douglas, and I trust that there is no difference which can be considered essential. Upon
the whole I may state that
the Company will be prepared to come to a settlement, substantially,
on the terms proposed by Governor Douglas if they beallowed
allowed to
purchase such other portions of the lands to which they lay claim as
they find it may be necessary for the purposes of their trade,
at the fixed price demanded by the Government for the lands in
the Colony, not charging the Company with any extra value attaching
to the lands in question, and which can only have arisen from the
outlay made upon them by this Company.
for the last three years
as representative of the Company, and from which Your Grace will
observe that there is no disposition on the part of the Company
to be exacting in their demands, or to require more space than
is actually required for the maintenance of their establishments
on their present footing. The terms suggested are in some instances
almost the same, in others only a trifle larger than those proposed
by Governor Douglas, and I trust that there is no difference which can be considered essential. Upon
the whole I may state that
the Company will be prepared to come to a settlement, substantially,
on the terms proposed by Governor Douglas if they beallowed
allowed to
purchase such other portions of the lands to which they lay claim as
they find it may be necessary for the purposes of their trade,
at the fixed price demanded by the Government for the lands in
the Colony, not charging the Company with any extra value attaching
to the lands in question, and which can only have arisen from the
outlay made upon them by this Company.
With regard to what are called "Town Lots" I have to submit
that the rights of the Company should not be restricted to the
ground actually built upon, but that they should be allowed a
certain open space around each lot of from 60 to 100 feet which
they are advised by their Agents in the Colony will be essential
for their protection aswell
well against fire as against the inroads
of the Indians.
well against fire as against the inroads
of the Indians.
If Her Majesty's Government are prepared to assent to a
settlement of the Company's claims upon the basis I have here
suggested I presume it will be necessary that the Government
should appoint some one in the Colony, and the Company do the
same, for the purpose of carrying this arrangement into effect,
and giving to this Company an indisputable title to what may be
made over to them.
Minutes by CO staff
Mr Fortescue
This appears to me satisfactory in the highest degree. I wd write to the Compy acknowledging the liberal way (for so I think it is) in wh they have met the proposals of Govr Douglas, and stating that though the D. of N. could not lend himself to a definite opinion upon questions of detail requiring so much of local knowledge for their decision, it appears to him that little difficulty could be experienced in concluding this affair on the general basis laid down in Mr Dallas' memorandum. That he would propose that the Compy or their Solicitor shd place themselves in communication with the Emgt Bd on the subject, who wd receive the instructions requisite in order to bring the matter into a definite shape.
This appears to me satisfactory in the highest degree. I wd write to the Compy acknowledging the liberal way (for so I think it is) in wh they have met the proposals of Govr Douglas, and stating that though the D. of N. could not lend himself to a definite opinion upon questions of detail requiring so much of local knowledge for their decision, it appears to him that little difficulty could be experienced in concluding this affair on the general basis laid down in Mr Dallas' memorandum. That he would propose that the Compy or their Solicitor shd place themselves in communication with the Emgt Bd on the subject, who wd receive the instructions requisite in order to bring the matter into a definite shape.
That some modification wd be required in the
proposal of Mr Dallas that the Compy sd have
"the right of purchase at the minimum price of all or
any portions of the Cy's (unascertained) claims."
But that probably there wd be no difficulty in
giving the Company every requisite facility for purchasing
what they require (purchases wh it is the clear intent
of Govt to promote rather than discourage) witht
giving them any such indefinite preemptive power as wd
act as a discouragement to settlement.
I think that
Mr Murdoch, or in his absence Mr Walcott,
would be able to frame, in communication (say) with Messrs
Maynard & Dallas, a kind of basis upon & within which
Govr Douglas might be instructed to conclude the Matter.
Mr Murdoch, or in his absence Mr Walcott,
would be able to frame, in communication (say) with Messrs
Maynard & Dallas, a kind of basis upon & within which
Govr Douglas might be instructed to conclude the Matter.
My impression is that this is really an opportunity
for settling the Matter, & that it wd be very foolish
to go off upon a few thousand acres more or less—provided
that neither the grants themselves, nor
the preemption or other hanging rights of the Compy
are such as to obstruct the settlement of the Country.
FR
30/8
Duke of Newcastle
I talked this matter over with Sir F.R. before leaving the Office & quite agree with him that it is an occasion on wh. we may meet the H.B.Co. in a friendly spirit.
I talked this matter over with Sir F.R. before leaving the Office & quite agree with him that it is an occasion on wh. we may meet the H.B.Co. in a friendly spirit.
CF
2 Sep
The only part of this proposal which appears to me doubtful
and likely to involve us in difficulty is that respecting
"Town Lots." Would the proposal for 60 or 100 feet around
each lot entail the acquisition by the Company of a Street
laid out for Public use? Whether there is really anything
in this doubt must depend upon local circumstances.
Upon the whole I think the deviations from the
Govrs terms may be conceded.
N
6
Documents enclosed with the main document (not transcribed)
