No. 87, Military
8 October 1860
My Lord Duke,
Adverting to your Despatch of the 2nd of July last, No 37, respecting the rate of Extra pay determined upon for the Detachment of Manuscript image of Royal Marines brought to Vancouver's Island in the "Tribune", I have the honor to forward herewith to Your Grace Copy of a communication I have received from Rear Admiral Baynes the Naval Commander in Chief, claiming that the sums already paid on account of Extra pay should not go in deduction of any amounts that may be due under the authority of your aforesaid despatch.
2. Manuscript image 2. The rates of Extra pay mentioned in my Despatch of the 8th of June 1859 No 168, were paid to the Officers and Men from the 14th of April, the day they were first sent to British Columbia, to the 31st of July, when they were withdrawn from that Colony on account of the San Juan occupation. I did not authorise any further issue of Extra pay, as circumstances permitted me to discontinue it, and as Your Despatch of Manuscript image of the 7th September 1859 led me to expect the receipt of definite instructions upon the subject.
3. As Your Grace's present instructions are in reply to my aforesaid Despatch, and are based upon the assumption that no Extra pay had been issued, it is clear to my mind that any payments which have already taken place on this account cannot be classed in any other category than with the payments now authorised, but Manuscript image but, notwithstanding, as Extra pay at a higher rate has actually been issued up to the 31st of July 1859, I would submit to Your Grace on behalf of a Detachment of men whose conduct amidst temptations to desertion of no ordinary character, and under circumstances of difficulty and hardship, has invariably been most satisfactory and loyal, that the payments already made should be confirmed, and that Manuscript image that Your Grace's present award should take effect from the 1st August 1859.
I have etc.
James Douglas
Minutes by CO staff
Manuscript image
Mr Elliot
The higher rate of Extra Pay (3s/a day) to the Marines has been sanctioned by despatch N 60 of 12th Ulto. From the date at which the Detachment was stationed on San Juan the service I apprehend became an Imperial one, and any extra pay to which the officers & men may be entitled while doing duty at San Juan will consequently be defrayed by the Manuscript image Admiralty, to which Dept: I conclude a Copy of this Despatch should be sent?
VJ 1 Decr
See separate Minute.
TFE 21 Feby
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Mr Fortescue
This despatch has accidentally escaped my attention. Fortunately however it is one on which little requires to be done, as I believe that it has been virtually disposed of by anticipation.
The Royal Marines who volunteered from China for Vancouver's Island were promised extra pay by their Commanding Officer, but under an impression that none had yet been issued to them, the Duke of Newcastle gave authority to the Governor on the 2nd of July 1860 to give to all this party Colonial pay equal to their regular pay so as to constitute double pay.
The Admiral represented through the Admiralty that the men had in fact been receiving much more than this, for that being employed at Engineer's work under Colonel Moody, they had been allowed something like 3s/- a day until they were recalled in order to occupy San Juan. Thereupon a fresh despatch was written to the Governor, dated the 12th of Novr 1860, authorizing him to let the Marines retain the higher pay which had already been issued to them for their services under Colonel Moody. The present despatch from Manuscript image from the Governor is written on the receipt of the first instructions dated the 2nd of July. He makes the same explanation as the Admiral, and expresses the same hope that the men will be allowed to retain the higher rate of extra pay which had already been issued to them up to the 31st of July 1859 when they were recalled from B. Columbia in order to occupy San Juan. The reply to this will be simply to refer the Governor to the later instructions of the 12th of Novr last, which will have sanctioned the very course he recommends.
But then both the Governor and the Admiral are silent as to any extra pay at all to the Marines subsequent to the 31st of July 1859. Now as the arguments based on the cost of living &c remain as much in force as ever, I should think it probable that the original proposal of double pay to Officers and men might still be a very fair one, the extra portion falling upon the Colony. The higher rate under Colonel Moody was not on account of expenses of living, but of special and hard Manuscript image hard work.
As the same time we are so much in the dark as to what may have been doing, that instead of giving on this point any instruction which might turn out to be inappropriate or disappointing, I would suggest that whilst pointing out to the Governor that his wishes are anticipated as to the period of service in British Columbia, we should desire him to report what course may have been followed in respect of pay to the Marines since they quitted that Colony and occupied San Juan.
TFE 21 Feby
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I should think the Admiralty, as Mr Jadis suggests, could give us some information. I wd. first send this desp. to them—& say that the D. of N. presumes that, since the 31st July 1859, since when the Marines have been employed upon a service of an Imperial rather than Colonial character, their extra-pay has been defrayed by the Admiralty—but requesting information.
CF 22
N 24
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Mr Fortescue
All the previous letters and despatches have assumed that whatever extra pay might be allowed would be a charge to the Colony, and I have never known a precedent for charging extra pay for the Queen's Troops to the funds of the Army and Navy. In such a service as that of the Marines, they must constantly be in far worse places than San Juan, and it would obviously introduce great confusion and jealousies into the Service if one detached party of this kind were allowed exceptional pay from its own Department, when all others are strictly confined to the terms of their engagement.
TFE 26 Feb
I believe extra-pay for Marines in China has been voted in the Army Estimates.
CF 28
Documents enclosed with the main document (not transcribed)
Manuscript image
Rear Admiral Baynes to Douglas, 9 September 1860, discussing the question of extra pay for the Royal Marines, as per despatch.
Other documents included in the file
Manuscript image
Draft, Elliot to Secretary to the Admiralty, 5 March 1861, forwarding correspondence relating to pay of the Royal Marines stationed in the colony and asking whether they had received further intelligence on the subject.
Minutes by CO staff
I see Admiral Baynes says (in 10354) that "on the 1st Aug. 1859 the Govr stopped all Colonial allowance to the detachment." But this enquiry had better go.
CF 28
Douglas, James to Pelham-Clinton, Henry Pelham Fiennes 8 October 1860, CO 60:8, no. 11191, 182. The Colonial Despatches of Vancouver Island and British Columbia 1846-1871, Edition 2.2, ed. James Hendrickson and the Colonial Despatches project. Victoria, B.C.: University of Victoria. https://bcgenesis.uvic.ca/B60087.html.

Last modified: 2020-12-02 13:40:34 -0800 (Wed, 02 Dec 2020) (SVN revision: 5008)