Colonial Despatches
The colonial despatches of Vancouver Island and British Columbia 1846-1871
Public Offices document
Murdoch, Thomas William Clinton to Rogers, Frederic 2 November 1867, CO 60:30, no. 10805, 219.
Abstract
Public Offices document.
Minutes (6), Other documents (3).
Murdoch acknowledges receiving Buckingham’s letter and the enclosed documents from Laurie and Dundas regarding providing a grant of land on Vancouver Island to the Church of Scotland. Murdoch discusses why the Church of Scotland is entitled to a grant of land on Vancouver Island with a comparison to the treatment of the Church of England. Cox’s minute suggests starting a report on the impact of granting land to the Church
of Scotland on Vancouver Island. Minutes by Elliot, Rogers, and Adderley discuss Murdoch’s arguments for granting land to the Church of Scotland on Vancouver Island. In particular, Murdoch’s reference to the Hudson Bay Company’s grant of land to the Church of England, and
the precedent that granting land to the Church of Scotland would set for all of the
colonies. Buckingham’s minute instructs the colonial office staff to decline the Church of Scotland’s
request for a grant of land on Vancouver Island. Included documents respond to previous inquiries requesting a grant of land for
the Church of Scotland on Vancouver Island.
Murdoch to Rogers (Permanent Under-Secretary)
I have to acknowledge your letter of 31st ultimo, with letters
from Mr Laurie & Mr F. Dundas enclosing memorials from the
Colonial Committee of the Church of Scotland for a grant of Land in
Vancouvers Island for the benefit of the Scotch Church established
there. A communication addressed to the Earl of Zetland by two of
the ministers of the Church in Victoria also accompanied Mr
Dundas' letter.
2. It is stated in these documents that a Grant was
made to
the Church of England by the Hudson's Bay Co and confirmed by
the Crown of 23 Acres in the City of Victoria, the value of which
is stated to be now $60,000. The Scotch Church, claiming an equality
in the Colonies with the Church of England, pray that a similar
grant may be made to them, and the communication to Lord Zetland
points out two sites where land of equal value to that possessed by
the English Church could be obtained. Upon this latter point no
one of course but the local authorities can pronounce—but in respect
to the principle of the grant I would submit that the Church
of
Scotland is entitled to be placed on an equal footing in Vancouvers
Island with the Church of England, and to receive towards the
maintainance of its Ministers similar assistance to what is given
to the Clergy of the Church of England. I would, therefore, recommend
the prayer of the Memorialists to the favorable consideration of
the Duke of Buckingham & Chandos.
made to
the Church of England by the Hudson's Bay Co and confirmed by
the Crown of 23 Acres in the City of Victoria, the value of which
is stated to be now $60,000. The Scotch Church, claiming an equality
in the Colonies with the Church of England, pray that a similar
grant may be made to them, and the communication to Lord Zetland
points out two sites where land of equal value to that possessed by
the English Church could be obtained. Upon this latter point no
one of course but the local authorities can pronounce—but in respect
to the principle of the grant I would submit that the Church
of
Scotland is entitled to be placed on an equal footing in Vancouvers
Island with the Church of England, and to receive towards the
maintainance of its Ministers similar assistance to what is given
to the Clergy of the Church of England. I would, therefore, recommend
the prayer of the Memorialists to the favorable consideration of
the Duke of Buckingham & Chandos.
Minutes by CO staff
Mr Elliot
If the D. of Buckingham decides that the Scotch Church is entitled to a grant of Land equal in extent or value to that given to the Church of England then it will remain with the Govr only to satisfy the Scotch claim as can be best done without detriment to further interests—but it might be safer to call for a report in the 1st instance.
If the D. of Buckingham decides that the Scotch Church is entitled to a grant of Land equal in extent or value to that given to the Church of England then it will remain with the Govr only to satisfy the Scotch claim as can be best done without detriment to further interests—but it might be safer to call for a report in the 1st instance.
CC
4 Novr 67
Sir F. Rogers
I apprehend that the endowment of Churches in new Colonies has long been rejected in practice, and that the endowment of them with rural lands is incontestably objectionable in principle on account of throwing large tracts into unimproving lands, and that endowing them with valuable lots in the middle of a Town, as in the present instance is open to the objection common to all endowments in these new Settlements occupied by people of all kinds of sects, vizt that what you give to one Church or Sect, you will assuredly be called upon to give to every other, so that it would be difficult to put bounds to the grants of public land or property for ecclesiastical purposes.
I apprehend that the endowment of Churches in new Colonies has long been rejected in practice, and that the endowment of them with rural lands is incontestably objectionable in principle on account of throwing large tracts into unimproving lands, and that endowing them with valuable lots in the middle of a Town, as in the present instance is open to the objection common to all endowments in these new Settlements occupied by people of all kinds of sects, vizt that what you give to one Church or Sect, you will assuredly be called upon to give to every other, so that it would be difficult to put bounds to the grants of public land or property for ecclesiastical purposes.
If therefore the Crown hadgiven
given this grant in Vancouver, I
should have felt rather suprised on account of the deviation from
practice which seems dictated by such forcible considerations.
Nevertheless if the Crown had done so, I should perhaps have agreed
with Mr Murdoch that it would be bound to do the same for the
Church of Scotland, although this would have been speedily followed
by applications quite as well founded from the Church of Rome and
the Free Kirk and any dissenting Bodies which may happen to have
large followings in Vancouver.
given this grant in Vancouver, I
should have felt rather suprised on account of the deviation from
practice which seems dictated by such forcible considerations.
Nevertheless if the Crown had done so, I should perhaps have agreed
with Mr Murdoch that it would be bound to do the same for the
Church of Scotland, although this would have been speedily followed
by applications quite as well founded from the Church of Rome and
the Free Kirk and any dissenting Bodies which may happen to have
large followings in Vancouver.
But in point of fact, you are aware, the grant, so contrary as
I believe to all modern policy of the Queen's Government, was made
by the Hudson's Bay Company, and the Crown is only so far a partyto
to
it, that in receiving over from the Company the transfer of the
Island, it has duly confirmed to the Church of England the property
already bestowed upon it by the Company.
to
it, that in receiving over from the Company the transfer of the
Island, it has duly confirmed to the Church of England the property
already bestowed upon it by the Company.
Under these circumstances I should think that it must be a far
more doubtful question whether the Crown ought now to make a grant to
the Church of Scotland merely because the Hudson's Bay Company several
years ago, and prior to any authority in the part of the Crown, made
a grant to the Church of England.
If it is to be done, the mode of doing it will be no small
difficulty. There can no longer be the means, even if it were
advisable, of giving a fresh Church a valuable propertyin
in the heart
of the Capital. If equivalent property is to be given in the Country, it
will imply granting a vast tract, with all the palpable objections to
converting such a tract into ecclesiastical property. And when all is
done, there will remain as above said the inevitable future claims of
other Churches and Persuasions.
in the heart
of the Capital. If equivalent property is to be given in the Country, it
will imply granting a vast tract, with all the palpable objections to
converting such a tract into ecclesiastical property. And when all is
done, there will remain as above said the inevitable future claims of
other Churches and Persuasions.
TFE
13 Novr
Mr Elliots view appears to me correct. It is not the policy of
Colonial Govt to give Churches endowments in land, and the property
now belonging to the English Church was given not by the Col. Govt
but by the H.B.C.
At the same time I do not think that the argt of the Scotch
Church is sound in principle. In V.C.I. & other Colonies all Churches
are on the same footing in theory. But
the English Church got
possession of the ground—made itself useful, and has reaped the
advantage of doing so. I do not know how many clergy there are—but
it is something of a body.
the English Church got
possession of the ground—made itself useful, and has reaped the
advantage of doing so. I do not know how many clergy there are—but
it is something of a body.
The Colonial Committee have one clergyman, & claim land
to the same amount as the English clergy who—so far as the
work is done—have been doing the bulk of it.
The Roman Catholics are doing much more & wd have a stronger
claim than the Presbyterians.
FR
16/11
It is not clear that Church reserves have been the least improved
lands. Evidence the other way. But I would leave it to Local Govt
to reserve or grant for Schools or places of Worship of recognized
sects what they please, like the U.S.
CBA
18/11
Reply that the grant to Engl. Church was made by H.B.Co. and not by
the Crown. That it is not the practice for the Crown to make grants,
and [we] are unable therefore to comply with the request of the
S.C. & inform Govr.
B&C
17/11
Other documents included in the file
Adderley to Reverend Simon Laurie, 23 November 1867, denying the
request for a grant of land, with explanation.
Draft reply, Buckingham to Seymour, No. 90, 21 November 1867 informing Seymour of the requests Buckingham received for the Church of Scotland to be granted land on Vancouver Island and informing Seymour that Buckingham could not comply with those requests.